501 - Let Them Unsubscribe

Cliff (0:00): The other day, was browsing LinkedIn and I came across a post that pretty much stopped me mid scroll. It was a photo of somebody holding a book, a very well known book called The Let Them Theory by Mel Robbins. And Laura McRae had this huge frown on her face. And I'm like, does she not like this book? I wonder what she has to say about this book.

Cliff (0:28): I've never read the book, the Let Them Theory by Mel Robbins. I wonder what she has to say. So I clicked through, and I did not anticipate when I clicked through to the post that I would hear an indictment against some people's way of producing their podcasts. Here's what she wrote. She says, this book reminds me of a bad podcast episode.

Cliff (0:55): I finally got around to listen to Mel Robbins' Let Them audiobook and the whole time I kept thinking this could have been one paragraph. It's not because the message was bad. It the idea is okay, but it felt so overexplained. And it reminded me a lot of about a lot of podcasts, you know, the episodes where they have an amazing title but twenty minutes later, they still haven't made the point. There's extra stories, extra content, and then there's the explanation of the explanation.

Cliff (1:27): Meanwhile, the listener is sitting there folding their laundry, washing the dishes, driving, work, walking the dog, trying to get through their never ending to do list wondering what was this episode even about again? This is your reminder that you do not need to over explain to sound valuable. You don't need to stretch a ten minute idea into a forty five minute episode. Sometimes the best thing you can do for your audience is to respect their attention and just say the thing. So this post has a total of 492 comments.

Cliff (2:12): Now I would say that if you have taken into account that Laura has responded to practically everyone that she's been notified of and she's seen their comments, she's very engaged and and and well done on choosing just the right image and creating a hook for people there. I I I must admit, I even left my own comment. And I will share with you in this episode something that I could probably share in five minutes but I may carry out for forty five minutes. And here's my thought. I I shared that I actually enjoy this perspective and it's one that I am willing to be challenged to change my own perception of this on this topic.

Cliff (3:00): However, one thing that I will agree upon, I have low tolerance for what she's speaking about if it were an audiobook or a written book. In fact, there is a book that has an amazing premise, an amazing core idea and it's called Mindset by Carol Dwork. And if I had to describe the book in a single sentence or phrase and that is some people have what some people believe that there we have a fixed mindset and some people believe that we have the ability to have a growth mindset. And and some people just believe you're born with a certain way of thinking or what it's been so long, but it was essentially that simple. It's like, do you have a great growth mindset or do you have a fixed mindset?

Cliff (3:56): And I read the first chapter. I'm like, oh, this is so brilliant. I love it. And then the second chapter was kind of the same thing. It added a little of little nuance.

Cliff (4:06): The third chapter basically said the same whole thing again, but from a different story. And then halfway through the next chapter, I'm like, okay, I'm just reading the same thing over and over again. And so I get it. That that could have been a one chapter book. It did not need to now, I didn't finish the book in all fairness to Carol Dwork.

Cliff (4:30): I could have missed I I I literally could have missed the most awesome breakthroughs and insights that might be contained in the rest of the book. But what I'm suggesting here is that I do resonate with this idea of just get to the point. When I think about somebody who writes a book, the way that I view a book is this is something that somebody has taken an idea, a concept, a story, a framework, something that they have been working on or discovering for and integrating into their life and mastering over the course of maybe at least several months if not several years and it's even better if it's been several decades and it's kind of been distilled down into its core essence. It's been outlined and logically presented in a way that is easily consumable without a lot of unnecessary repetition. That's exactly how I think about a book.

Cliff (5:39): It is not however how I think about a podcast. Now if I were to go to a conference and there is a person who is an expert on a given topic and that person is given forty five minutes to speak on the topic for which they are an expert in, if they got on stage and essentially had something that they could have said in five minutes but they spent the entire forty five minutes saying the same thing 15 different ways, I'd probably get a little bit flustered and and leave and say this is boring. I think I got what I needed here. Thanks. And I'd move on with my day.

Cliff (6:28): And so I'm not a stranger to this idea of, hey, say what you gotta say, get to the point, and then and respect people's time and move on. So when I'm sitting down to read a book or I'm doing whatever I'm doing when I'm listening to an audiobook or when I'm sitting in an audience to take in a presentation, I carry the same perspective on respecting your audience's time. However, I just don't hold the same standard to podcasts. And I think a lot of it has to do with why I listen to podcast. I do not listen to podcasts to learn things.

Cliff (7:18): That may sound crazy to some people but I if I wanna learn something, I'm probably going to go read a book about it. I'm probably going to buy a course about it. I'm probably going to go to a conference where speakers are speaking on the topic and giving me the distilled information in a very clear and concise way. I may watch some presentations on YouTube videos that explain it. I mean there's a number of places I go to learn things but a podcast for me is a place where I go to hear about things.

Cliff (8:01): That's different. And what I mean by that is I tune in every week to a podcast called MacBreak Weekly. It's my favorite podcast bar none and this week I listened to episode number 1,028. That podcast episode was two hours and sixteen minutes. And I'm looking here, they do not have any episode that is less than two hours in length.

Cliff (8:36): And sometimes they come to the show which is produced every single week on Tuesday. I listen to it every single week on Wednesday, sometimes going into Thursday. Certainly have finished it by Friday. But I listen to this show for the two plus hours every week And oftentimes, this is a show where they usually talk about the latest news related to Apple, its software and hardware products and services. And sometimes there are very slow newsweeks.

Cliff (9:17): There's not a lot of topics for them to discuss. But they already have a format and their format is such a way that financially for them, they try to fill ad slots and so they keep a certain length regardless of how much there is to talk about and sometimes they will bloviate on things that are them going down rat holes and side tangents and sometimes they'll be talking about things that have absolutely nothing to do with Apple. And I enjoy it because I have developed a relationship with the panelists of that show. I've been listening to every single episode for twenty years. Now I also listen to This Week Intech, another show by Leo Laporte and his panelists that he has joined him each week And that show is also over two hours in length.

Cliff (10:22): Now I don't listen to that every week and sometimes I get a couple of minutes in and things go in a direction where it's a little bit more political and I'm like, that's just not my thing. I came here for the tech. I check out and stop listening when the politics start to get involved. And so I don't listen to every single episode, but it's not because they're just going down rabbit holes or they're not getting to a specific point that was in the title of the episode. No.

Cliff (10:51): I don't tune in to learn the like, everything I need to know about Apple products or learn everything I need to know about the nuance absolute details of what I need to be able to succeed in operating technology and or Apple products. Now I go there to hear people's opinions and thoughts and ideas and while I may have originally tuned into those shows because I had an interest in the topic, over time I developed a relationship with the host or hosts of the show. I've often talked about my friend father Roderick Von Hogan. He was the third podcaster I ever heard of and I've listened to every podcast episode of all of his main podcasts in more than twenty years. I don't miss him.

Cliff (11:53): I love listening to his content. Now I've listened to him talk about The Catholic Insider where he would go and visit all of these Catholic locations and tell you Catholic stories. I'm not Catholic and I didn't ever listen to a single episode to hear him instruct me and inform my faith in a Catholic perspective type of way. I have a great deal of respect for his faith, I have a great deal of appreciation for his sharing of his faith, I also enjoy how he describes his faith. But I actually tuned in because I liked how he communicates.

Cliff (12:39): I love his authenticity. I love his energy. I love his playfulness. I love his curiosity. And quite frankly, when I go for a long walk or if I'm on a long drive or I'm washing the dishes or I'm getting ready in the morning, I really enjoy hearing him talk.

Cliff (12:59): And over the years, he's shifted and had something called the daily breakfast, and then it became, the break. And today, he does a show called the walk. The format has changed. The types of topics that he covers has changed. And there have been times when, you know, the the topics that are coming up, it seems kind of repetitive.

Cliff (13:21): It's like, wow. It's it's like the third or fourth week in the row that we're talking about downsizing and and decluttering and stuff like that. And at the same time, while I recognize there seems to be some repetition and sometimes I hear the same things over and over again, It's not necessarily the same episode over and over again. He says the same things a lot of times in different ways, and and and there are newer revelations that he's had and breakthroughs and he shares it, but it's it's essentially the same thing and yet there's something compelling about me tuning in to listen to him talk for an hour every week. In fact, if he ever goes on vacation, which he's done over the couple, you know, over the twenty years, if he goes on vacation and he doesn't record an episode and publish it, I miss his voice.

Cliff (14:24): I was like, you could talk about anything and I would listen. So yeah. And the other thing that I will share about podcasts, I enjoy people who share what they're thinking out loud. I enjoy hearing how people think, how people process. It's one of the reasons why I have such a harsh reaction to anyone who's reading their AI generated script.

Cliff (14:55): Every syllable is perfect. Every phrase is formulated in such a way that it flows perfectly, effortlessly, and quite frankly, it's like I could have just read your blog post, and I may have been better off just reading your show notes. I could have got through it faster. But what I really love is hearing the person think out loud. I'm an audio processor and I'm sharing with you just my own experience of this.

Cliff (15:31): You know, I I'm taking something that could have been a five minute podcast episode. In fact, I I I read the whole post in just a few moments, like, in in less than thirty seconds, and I could have read just my comment in that would have taken another thirty seconds. This could have been a one minute podcast. But here I am sixteen minutes into this thing, and I'm still going on. And ironically, you're still listening.

Cliff (16:03): Now, do you wish I'd get to the point? Well, the point is obvious. The point is is that who is anyone to tell us what we should or should not do with our podcast episodes? Is there value in having an outline where you know exactly what you're gonna say, how you're gonna say it, and say it in the shortest, fewest amount of words possible? Yes.

Cliff (16:28): And I think that is, for me, something that I would always do if I was speaking on stage or if I were writing a book and there might be a handful of other places. Like, for example, if I were doing a short series format podcast, I would get to the point. I would have an outline. But not every podcast is the same. If you get into a podcast and you found a title of an episode and you click through and you listen and you're twenty minutes in and you find yourself really disinterested, by all means, unsubscribe from that podcast and move on with life.

Cliff (17:09): But there may be some other people out there who really enjoy the journey of exploring an idea from multiple different paths to hearing how that person is experiencing it. What are they thinking about it? So for me, I just think it comes down to why is somebody listening to a podcast? And I can tell you if somebody is listening to a podcast because they want to attain high value information in a succinct manner, straight to the point in and out and move on to the next thing, my content typically isn't going to be your bag. It's just not.

Cliff (17:59): I'm going to be the guy who has a topic, an idea, and thinks about it and processes out loud, oftentimes unscripted. And in an episode like this without even an outline. And we all know how that can go get derailed. I mean, for goodness sakes. Now, one of the things that I have not done yet, and I'm not gonna do for 246 comments, but I haven't read any of the other comments other than my own.

Cliff (18:30): And so I'm going to impromptu in the moment live to drive, let you hear what some other people have said about this. Someone says I haven't read the book, but as someone who edits people down for a living audio and video, I can confirm everything you said is true. Okay. Fair enough. The next comment says, let's see here.

Cliff (18:52): I have the audiobook and I listen here and there. I do find it motivating when I need it. And she's referring to the let them method or whatever. She says I've been on the cusp of sending my midlife podcast out to the world. So this is somebody who's thinking about creating their own podcast who's commenting.

Cliff (19:09): Now I know I have a lot of good stuff to say but sometimes I find myself thinking I wish I'd just get on to the point what I was trying to make. Shows how much I need to prepare I guess. Any tips? See this right here, this is why this post, it it it takes somebody and says, listen, if you're thinking about creating a podcast, you really need to make sure that you wait until you you you have figured out how to get to the point and and not waste people's time. And so now this person has said right here, wow, I've been wanting, I've been on the cusp of releasing my voice into the world.

Cliff (19:55): And I know I have a lot of good stuff to say, but sometimes I find myself thinking I wish I'd just get on to the point that I was trying to make. And it says, this shows you how much how much I need to prepare, I guess. So what's this person gonna do? They're going to continue to prepare, continue to prepare, continue to prepare, and they're going to hesitate to put their good stuff that they have to say out into the world because there's this fear that I need to just get straight to the point and I need to be perfect. I need to be it needs to be polished.

Unknown Speaker (20:34): I need to be respectful of people's time. Matter of fact, I was telling you about father Roderick. Do you know that he has a habit from time to time of saying, you know, sorry to waste your time, you know, with this and blah blah blah. And I'm like, no. You're not wasting my time.

Cliff (20:50): If you were wasting my time, just stop listening. I really value the fact that you went on and on for the last hour because it's really kept me company. I really enjoyed our time together. Alright. Here's another comment.

Cliff (21:06): Erica says, totally agree. My husband told me in the early days of starting my podcast, don't waffle as I tend to. And honestly, best advice ever. My podcast is fifteen to twenty minutes and my audience loves it. Now I think that's great.

Cliff (21:23): I think it's wonderful if you have found yourself getting into a great wonderful rhythm and groove and you can fit what you want to share into a fifteen to twenty minute episode and you love it and your audience love it loves it, that's great. It's wonderful. However, I wonder, for me, if I would enjoy it. I I don't know. I tend to prefer somebody who waffles a little bit.

Cliff (21:53): I I want somebody who's going to break from the script, who's gonna go off script and chat with me. Share with me some thoughts. In fact, matter okay. Occasionally, there are these entrepreneurial self help personal development books written by well known figures out there in the space and when they go into their studio to do the audio narration, oftentimes, they'll go off script and just share and off the cuffs give some additional insight. Now, I think that has a little bit to add into this idea of FOMO.

Cliff (22:35): It's like, oh my gosh, am I getting the full value if I if I get the written book, if I get this on Kindle, I'm gonna miss out on some of the other other things where they said in the audio narration. It's like, when I was writing the book, let me share with you a little story, and this is what I didn't include. But I you know, since I'm in the studio, I'll I'll include it here. It's like, my gosh. I'm so glad I got the audio version of this to hear you waffle a little bit.

Cliff (23:03): Anyway, I'm scrolling through the rest of the comments here, and I see that surprisingly, a majority of the people are not commenting on the commentary around podcast episodes, and a lot of them are sharing their thoughts on the Mel Robbins book and the personal development book industry as a whole. Don't get me wrong. I have not read all of the comments, and there are hundreds of them. So with that being said, I think I've made my point. A point that I could have made in one minute now in twenty four of those minutes.

Cliff (23:41): If there's one thing that I wanna say, what is the point of this entire episode? And that is if somebody tells you that you need to outline your talk, you need to know exactly what it is that you're going to say, only give one story, one supporting argument, say what you need to say, get to the point and then stop that episode and don't waste a single moment of your audience's time, effort and energy. Their attention is so valuable and you must, you absolutely must be respectful of their time. And that's why you need to keep your episodes short, sweet, laser focused and to the point. And if you if you've heard that and it's caused you to question the content that you're creating or if it's caused you any due undue pressure or anxiety or fear of starting your podcast.

Cliff (24:48): I'm going to tell you, by all means, go record yourself two and three or four hour podcast where you just ramble and share authentically off the top of your heart about the things that matter to you. And let the people who resonate with who you are and how you decide to show up, let them decide with the subscribe button or the unsubscribe button, the play button or the stop button. Let them vote on whether or not it's for them but create the content that's in your heart to create. Don't let anybody's opinions about what is the right way to do podcasting or the wrong way to do podcasting. This post when it started, it's like it reminds me of these bad podcast episodes and like by whose definition?

Cliff (25:48): Clearly yours. That's fine. I appreciate your perspective but there are people out there who enjoy hearing authentic, transparent, thinking out loud content. Create the content you feel called to put in the world and it's okay to waffle. Until next time, I encourage you to take everything you do to the next level.

Unknown Speaker (26:17): Podcast Answer Man.